Monitoring spiritual deception and world events from a Biblical perspective.
It is now Nov 2, 2010. These signs have been going on for decades when does it end? Maybe you should re-think your position on prophecy.
It ends ( this earth age ) when Christ returns.The birth pangs ( signs ) are rapidly increasing.Come back at the end of the November and I will ask if you will rethink your position on prophecy.See you then
It's Nov 30th. Haven't changed my position, have you? Probably not.
No, I haven't...but thanks for checking :) Is there a particular aspect of prophecy that I should reconsider?
I've been in the church since the early 70's. Was born again when I was 10. Raised believing Premil end times theology. I couldn't tell you where in scripture to prove my belief. Except where my Pastor told me it was and even then I couldn't confirm in my heart what he said was true. About a year and a half ago, came across a different interpretation to Daniel's 70th week. Decided then that I should study for myself what scripture says. Question to you. To prove an interpretation you must use scripture to prove scripture, correct?
Is the 70th week of Daniel about an Anti-Christ making a covenant with the nation of Israel and then breaking it? If yes, prove it.
Are yet to be fulfilled prophecies intended to be proven? Or are we to prove ourselves as students of the Scriptures, as alert and awake believers, watching for the signs of Matthew 24?What can be known about the prophecies in the Book of Daniel and The Book of Revelation?I could search the scriptures to see what the Bible says about Daniel's references to "the prince that shall come". I could search the scriptures to understand what signs to watch for regarding the Antichrist, and what he will do once he is revealed.In my opinion, our duty regarding prophecy is similar to that of a pilot navigating with a map and recognizing the terrain features so he knows where he is located while in enroute to the destination. When he arrives at the destination, the destination will speak for itself :)Isaiah 46:9-13Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done...Isaiah 48:3-7I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass. Because I knew that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass; I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them. Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them. They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.Revelation 1:1-3The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.Matthew 24:36-44But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.Matthew 25Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.Revelation 3:3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
But isn't Revelation about an Anti-Christ making a covenant with the nation of Israel, then breaking it? If yes, where does it say that in Revelation?
"Are yet to be fulfilled prophecies intended to be proven?" I'm not asking if prophecies need to be proven, I'm asking if "your" interpretation of Daniel's 70th week prophecy is correct.
"I could search the scriptures to see what the Bible says about Daniel's references to "the prince that shall come."Daniel 9:26b ...and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; Correct grammar will tell you that it is the people who are to come. The prince identifies who the people are. The people is the subject of the sentence not the prince. The people are the ones who are coming not necessarily the prince.
Is my interpretation correct? I can only say it is a work in progress. Won't know if it is correct til the event occurs. But I am confident in what signs to look for... Regarding the people...they will destroy the citythey are the people of the prince to come.
From the ESV Study Bible...After the cutting off of the anointed one, the people of the prince (Hb. nagid) who is to come would destroy Jerusalem and its sanctuary. Many commentators understand this “coming prince” as a reference to the Roman general Titus, whose army destroyed Jerusalem in a.d. 70, or as a reference to a future antichrist. Other interpreters understand this prince to be the same “anointed prince” (Hb. mashiakh nagid) anticipated in v. 25. This person is addressed as “anointed one,” where the focus is on his priestly work of offering himself as a sacrifice, and as a “ruler” whose people fail to submit to his rule. The principal cause of the destruction of the city and temple of Jerusalem in a.d. 70 was the transgression of God's people in rejecting the Messiah that God had sent to them (Luke 19:41–44).
Who do you believe the "prince" is in verse 26?Who do you believe the "He" is in verse 27?
To answer your question...I don't know.There seems to be three views regarding the identity of the prince in those verses...One would be aware of these views and watch the signs to see what reality reveals.From the ESV...Even the appearing of this anointed one, a prince, would not immediately usher in the peace and righteousness that Jeremiah anticipated. Instead, the anointed one (Hb. mashiakh, from which “Messiah” is derived) would himself be cut off (v. 26), leaving him with nothing, surely a reference to the crucifixion of Christ. After the cutting off of the anointed one, the people of the prince (Hb. nagid) who is to come would destroy Jerusalem and its sanctuary. Many commentators understand this “coming prince” as a reference to the Roman general Titus, whose army destroyed Jerusalem in a.d. 70, or as a reference to a future antichrist. Other interpreters understand this prince to be the same “anointed prince” (Hb. mashiakh nagid) anticipated in v. 25. This person is addressed as “anointed one,” where the focus is on his priestly work of offering himself as a sacrifice, and as a “ruler” whose people fail to submit to his rule. The principal cause of the destruction of the city and temple of Jerusalem in a.d. 70 was the transgression of God's people in rejecting the Messiah that God had sent to them (Luke 19:41–44).Dan. 9:27 he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. On one interpretation, this refers to Christ's atonement. With the death of Jesus on the cross, the atoning sacrifices of the OT were abolished (Heb. 10:1–9). His death brought those whom God had chosen into the new covenant relationship with the Lord. On another interpretation, if “the prince who is to come” (Dan. 9:26) is not the Messiah but an opponent of God's people, then “he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering” means he will destroy the temple, and the prediction refers to the destruction of Jerusalem. The final part of v. 27 is extremely difficult to translate. Literally, it reads, “In the middle of that seven, he will put an end to sacrifice and offering, and on account of the extremity [or “wing”] of abominations that cause desolation, until the end that has been decreed, it will be poured out unto desolation.” On the connection of “abominations” and “makes desolate,” see note on 11:31–32. Yet a third interpretation comes from dispensational scholars, who have argued that 9:27 will be fulfilled at the end of the church age, during the great tribulation. The argument in support of this position is as follows: If the first 69 weeks end with the death of Jesus, and if he comes back after the “seventieth week” to punish the one who makes desolate, then there must be a gap or period of time between these weeks (namely, the entire church age). Often this gap is explained as the time when God is dealing with the church and not specifically Israel, and thus it is not part of the “seventy sevens.” In the climactic seventieth week, the ruler (taken to be the “Antichrist”) makes a strong covenant (“treaty or alliance”) with many (i.e., the Jewish people) for three and a half years and then puts “an end to sacrifice and offering” that he had allowed to be offered in a rebuilt temple (cf. Isa. 66:6; Ezekiel 40–44; 47; Rev. 3:12; 11:1–2). The cutting off of the sacrifices will then usher in the second half of the “great tribulation” (by this reading of Rev. 7:14; cf. Matt. 24:21) because it will be an intense time of persecution. The final part of Dan. 9:27 envisages a climactic abomination that causes the devastating final judgment decreed for the Antichrist (the one who makes desolate). Other interpreters do not see such a specific prediction in v. 27.
Since you don't know for sure, which one do you favor? Which one do you think maybe the right one?
"Yet a third interpretation comes from dispensational scholars, who have argued that 9:27 will be fulfilled at the end of the church age, during the great tribulation..."How about you?
I believe that the "prince" in vs 26 is the Roman General Titus and the "He" in vs 27 is Jesus Christ. The 70th week of Daniel started 3 1/2 years before the cross and ended 3 1/2 years after the cross. The later sections of verses 26 & 27 happened in 70 A.D. and is not part of the 70 weeks of Daniel.
I respect your position. I agree that the 70 year AD matches up. I also believe the possibility exists that both positions may be correct, ie, history repeating itself or the concept of dual prophecies.May we both remain awake and alert for His Second coming.
I would have to disagree with your postion of a dual fulfillment. http://covenant-theology.blogspot.com/2008/12/dual-fulfillment-and-future-tribulation.html
Reformer John Owen said, "If the Scripture has more than one meaning, it has no meaning at all."
My friend,I have / will consider your position. I can say that the Fourth Kingdom referred to in the Book Daniel has yet to emerge. Given human nature and current events, globalization will sek it's leader.Let us watch and continue to study to show ourselves approved.God bless and protect.
I would again disagree with your statement. The kingdom of God is here already. Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Daniel 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. 41. And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42. And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43. And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. 44. And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. The fourth kingdom was the Roman Empire. It was the empire that followed the Greek Empire. When Christ came he set up his kingdom. We are now in the growing kingdom of Christ. Daniel 2:35b ...and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
The kingdoms Daniel reveals:1. Babylon2. Medo - Persian3 Roman4. 21st century globalized world - http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/eq/daniel_aalders.pdfTake a look at what the enemy has planned...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_RDqpRJXCYhttp://theblackawakening.com/Even the new agers point to the removal of Christians who are causing the delay of the world's evolving to a new consciousness and they must be taken out of the way..."The AAC takes this criticism of Christianity one step further and actually blames it for stealing the sole of humanity and implanting fear and death. In the same paragraph that they make this statement about Christians they go on to say that as we evolve, we will realize we need not fear death any longer. Perhaps during the tribulation period, when Christians are persecuted for their faith, this line of thinking will be used to eliminate the 'soul-stealing', 'death-causing' Christians."http://www.contenderministries.org/prophecy/falsechrists.phpAll hell is getting ready to break loose...and the kingdom within our hearts will be revealed when Christ returns and we are transformed in a twinkling of an eye. And the crushing of the nations by the Lord will occur in the valley of decision. Then the nations will bend their knees to the Lord of hosts.
The kingdoms Daniel reveals:1. Babylon2. Medo - Persian3 Roman4. 21st century globalized world - http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/eq/daniel_aalders.pdfHistory records that first came Babylon, Medo-Persians, then the Greeks and last the Roman empire. These are the four empires prophesied by Daniel. I've never met anyone who doesn't include the Greeks in the four Empires. I don't agree with your standing on these prophecies. Psalms 86:11
I stand corrected regarding the four kingdoms.I will continue my study on the matter...
40And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things. And like iron that crushes, it shall break and crush all these. 41And as you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom, but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the soft clay. 42And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle. 43As you saw the iron mixed with soft clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage, but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever...The legs are are iron ( Roman Empire ) however the feet and ten toes ( Revelation 13 )are mixed with clay and iron. The Roman Empire morphed into the Holy Roman Empire...which is still with us today in the form of the Roman Catholic Church, "iron mixed with common clay".The Fourth Kingdom still exists! The ten toes represent the 10 Kings to come (Daniel 2,7 and Revelation 13)...of which the Antichrist rises.The two witnesses and the abyss events have not occured.Thank you for challenging me to examine the issue.
The fourth kingdom does not exist. The fourth kingdom was the Roman Empire. The ten toes represent the ten provinces of Rome which were, Italy, Achaia, Asia, Syria, Egypt, Africa, Spain, Gaul, Britain, and Germany. The fourth kingdom is not destine to rise again. The two witnesses came in 70 A.D.
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